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The first constitutional amendment I would like to propose for your consideration is an amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition. I present the text of it below. for the full essay & analysis please see:
demablogue.typepad.com/
Amendment XXVIII
Section 1. Amendments V, VI, and VIII shall be understood to apply to all persons, US citizens and non-citizens alike, in times of war as well as in times of peace.
Section 2. Neither the US government nor any branch of the Military or the Intelligence Services shall hold any person without trial or without access to a lawyer, under any circumstances whatsoever.
Section 3. Neither the US government nor any of its agencies shall hold any person, citizen or non-citizen, in any form of secret prison or detention center. Any prison operated by the US government or any of its agencies shall allow access by the media, lawyers, the Red Cross or any other medical agency, and any international watchdog agency wishing to verify the humane conditions therein. These agencies or persons must have access to individual prisoners for private interviews for the purposes of verifying the humane conditions of the prison.
Section 4. Torture of any kind, on any person, citizen or non-citizen, held by the US government or any of its agencies, is espressly forbidden. Torture shall be understood to mean the intentional infliction of any kind of pain or discomfort, physical, mental, or psychological, whether for the purposes of extracting information or not.
Section 5. The US government, or any of its agencies, may not transfer any prisoner, citizen or non-citizen, for any reason, to the custody of any other nation, agency, government or corporation that does not guarantee the same rights and protections specified in this amendment, or that has a verifiable record of torture or other human rights violations.
Section 6. Any prisoners currently held by the US government, or any of its agencies, in conditions prohibited by this amendment, shall be guaranteed trial or released within six months of the passage of this amendment.
demablogue.typepad.com/
Amendment XXVIII
Section 1. Amendments V, VI, and VIII shall be understood to apply to all persons, US citizens and non-citizens alike, in times of war as well as in times of peace.
Section 2. Neither the US government nor any branch of the Military or the Intelligence Services shall hold any person without trial or without access to a lawyer, under any circumstances whatsoever.
Section 3. Neither the US government nor any of its agencies shall hold any person, citizen or non-citizen, in any form of secret prison or detention center. Any prison operated by the US government or any of its agencies shall allow access by the media, lawyers, the Red Cross or any other medical agency, and any international watchdog agency wishing to verify the humane conditions therein. These agencies or persons must have access to individual prisoners for private interviews for the purposes of verifying the humane conditions of the prison.
Section 4. Torture of any kind, on any person, citizen or non-citizen, held by the US government or any of its agencies, is espressly forbidden. Torture shall be understood to mean the intentional infliction of any kind of pain or discomfort, physical, mental, or psychological, whether for the purposes of extracting information or not.
Section 5. The US government, or any of its agencies, may not transfer any prisoner, citizen or non-citizen, for any reason, to the custody of any other nation, agency, government or corporation that does not guarantee the same rights and protections specified in this amendment, or that has a verifiable record of torture or other human rights violations.
Section 6. Any prisoners currently held by the US government, or any of its agencies, in conditions prohibited by this amendment, shall be guaranteed trial or released within six months of the passage of this amendment.
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Thu, November 30, 2006 - 9:50 PMEnforcement is the issue when the Executive does not feel obligated to uphold the law of the land.
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Fri, December 1, 2006 - 3:29 AMI mostly agree, bearing the following thoughts in mind:
re: Sec. 2 ..hold any person without trial or without access to a lawyer, under any circumstances whatsoever.
-- Amend this to express a need for expedience. Short-term detention is, at times, neccessary in the course of an investigation.
re: Sec. 4 ..Torture shall be understood to mean the intentional infliction of any kind of pain or discomfort, physical, mental, or psychological, whether for the purposes of extracting information or not.
-- Jail is uncomfortable, as well it should be. If we make our penal system a pleasure retreat, it loses all punitive value.
-- DoC workers must, at times, use physical force in restraining prisoners. This may cause pain, but it is better than leaving the guards with no authority.
re: Sec. 5 <ibid>
-- As nice as this would be in theory, it cannot be upheld in all situations. Foreign relations sometimes take priority over perfect civil liberties.
re: Sec. 6 Any prisoners.. shall be guaranteed trial or released within six months..
-- I realize I've taken this out of context, but I would hate to see it twisted and used as justification for bond/bail-free release of truly dangerous felons in the event of an unforeseen back-log in the judicial system. Because it will..
In general, I like the thinking behind this. It just needs a little tweaking to make it functionable. -
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Fri, December 1, 2006 - 3:39 PMaargh. You want people to be jailed for six months without trial and that to be Constitutional. Guess your definition of freedom and liberty and the garanteeing of it don't involve fairness or rightness but certainly do give considerable comfort to a faceless bureaucratic state. -
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Tue, December 5, 2006 - 6:35 PM
I'm a realist. "Fairness" for all is a subjective concept. You can neither fool nor please all of the people all of the time. I uphold our civil liberties every day, in ways many would not understand. There comes a point where you have to look at all possible options, weigh the outcomes, and make a judgement call. You don't have to agree; you have that right. That's what it's really all about.
Ask yourself a question though: Whose rights are more important; you, me or the gun-toting psychopath that wants to take away your basic right to live? There are no easy cures. The system is broken, and will remain so, so long as people get caught up in minutia and cannot see the bigger picture.
For the record, I am neither liberal nor conservative, and I certainly have no interest in seeing the federal government steal more control/freedom away from you and me. For fucks' sake..! I'm the guy who's been weeping for the demise of habius corpus and the wholesale shredding of the constitution. *Sheesh!* -
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Tue, December 5, 2006 - 8:27 PMAgain, you propose a paradise on Earth if we just go along with locking folks up for an unspecified time without trial or judicial review? Sounds like totalitarianism to me. Further, who will police the bureaucrats in this state of yours that your propose? What checks would prevent them from locking you up if they decided they didn't like you? Who would help you get out if you were wrongfully accused. Yeah, it might sound good on paper but it isn't the solution in the long run...as the sword of the state >always< cuts both ways. -
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Wed, December 6, 2006 - 3:08 PM
I'll agree to disagree with your world-view. Please do not make this personal. -
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Wed, December 6, 2006 - 4:04 PMI will make it personal when those who advocate that people be detained for over six months without trial nor hearing nor review decided that that would be good for everyone but themselves. I am simply trying to point out that it would not be good for you either...in all likelihood. -
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Fri, December 8, 2006 - 7:53 PM
Timbo,
Your only enemy here is yourself.
No one is advocating wrongful imprisonment, least of all me. You should probably read my post titled, "Four out of five.." You might then come to realize we are on the same side. I would NEVER propose holding someone without trial or cause. I hope you will see that you have jumped to an ill-founded conclusion.
I ask no apology, only understanding.
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Sat, December 9, 2006 - 12:50 AMI say that your scare tactic rhetoric speaks for itself--that I will grant you. As for "the bigger picture", instead of mentioning it, why don't you tell us what this bigger picture of your's actually is rather than just mentioning it in passing? Or are we "too ignorant" to understand that bigger picture you mentioned? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Mon, December 11, 2006 - 12:47 PM
Please stop trolling. -
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Mon, December 11, 2006 - 8:44 PMPlease talk about rehabilitation rather than enforcement.
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Unsu...
Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Wed, December 6, 2006 - 11:51 PM"Whose rights are more important; you, me or the gun-toting psychopath that wants to take away your basic right to live? There are no easy cures. The system is broken, and will remain so, so long as people get caught up in minutia and cannot see the bigger picture."
If you emptied out all the prisons, of course, of nonviolent drug offenders, and put these (properly convicted) 'enemies of humanity' / 'proven terrorists and enemies of the state, by public trial' and other violent criminals, and gross non-violent criminals (viz. Enron snakes), you could probably close 80% of prisons.
Point being? Drug prohibition again is the biggest monkey-wrench in the biggest machine yet known.
Nothing will be solved until that is resolved. -
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Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Fri, December 8, 2006 - 8:06 PM
We are in agreement, Maddock. Non-violent drug offenders make up a sizeable portion of US prison populations. Legalization of naturally occuring substances would be a step in the right direction. I feel the same way about adult consensual prostitution. Legalization and regulation to include regular testing and approved locations for "conducting business" are much needed. I believe that these two measures would dramatically reduce the cases of "victimless" crime in America, and help eliminate quite a few causes of violent crimes.
For the record, I do NOT consider "white-collar" crime to be victimless.
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Unsu...
Re: A constitutional amendment banning torture, secret prisons, and extraordinary rendition
Tue, December 5, 2006 - 7:03 PMYou stated all the points I came up with when I read it.
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